Photos from the OLRmy - Email a photo to pics@orangeloungeradio.com

Orange Lounge Radio

Dedicated to video games & the gamer lifestyle!

 

LISTEN TO OLR

Listen to Orange Lounge Radio Live
Sunday nights at
6PM PST / 9PM EST.
Join us for a live show!

Launch the OLR Player
Launch the OLR Player

Listen at the VOG Network
Listen at the VOG Network


Click Here to subscribe to our podcast in iTunes!

Grab Our Podcast Feed
Grab Our Podcast Feed

OLRMY

Become part of the OLRmy by joining our forums!



FRIENDS OF OLR

hordehouse
Bobby Blackwolf
Under Sedation LIVE
Geek Life

Orange Lounge Radio Episode 187 - 6 / 18 / 06

Discussion and Feedback on the Orange Lounge Radio LIVE program, including your suggestions for future topics and news on upcoming specials

Postby Graywulf » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:12 pm

Another show down congradulations on 4 years I commend the atention to the game.

On a second note I do think that Sony is saying too much this year possibly to sell a system and an ideal to people that probably could care less.

For my part the latest statement from Ken gives me hope for I do get it.

What was mentioned was that the PS3 is a modular design much like a PC and in the future Sony understands that for new updates to upgrade the existing hardware instead of selling a whole new box.

Seems perfectly clear to me, and alot more sound than perhaps paying over a grand for the PS4 when that comes out. Just sell me the new CPU and GPU plug in or make available more memory.

Also the custom PS3 sounds awsome if they do follow through people who want the dual HDMI built in or perhaps all the other ideas they had for adding to the box maybe even location free inclusive.

But hey I maybe talking to the wrong people I hope not cause life is pretty boring if I have to accept the old ways of gaming. Or be forced to buy the big Bill Box.
User avatar
Graywulf
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Cerritos SoCA.

Postby Reenee » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:56 pm

Making a gaming console like a PC gives extreme trouble for developers and it's just plain stupid overall. It's just milking more money out of the customers.
User avatar
Reenee
Radio Junkie
Radio Junkie
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:00 pm

Postby Graywulf » Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:03 pm

And yet like most liberals that dont have a solution. I dont see the points in how it causes any problems what so ever.

the system is not gonna change with upgrading so a big huh?? to you .
User avatar
Graywulf
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Cerritos SoCA.

Postby Graywulf » Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:40 pm

Reenee wrote:Making a gaming console like a PC gives extreme trouble for developers and it's just plain stupid overall. It's just milking more money out of the customers.


Can you explain better how its more difficult for game developers?

And let me know who doesnt milk the cow in the PC industry?

Also how is it plain stupid overall?

can we be more clear or are we not trying here.
User avatar
Graywulf
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Cerritos SoCA.

Postby VxJasonxV » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:26 am

Graywulf wrote:
Reenee wrote:Making a gaming console like a PC gives extreme trouble for developers and it's just plain stupid overall. It's just milking more money out of the customers.
Can you explain better how its more difficult for game developers?
Developers have to build features around what may or may not be there.
The most notably being whether or not there will be a Hard Drive in the unit.
Being able to use it as a temp dump/swap/cache location would be keen. No such luck if consoles are that modular.

The one thing about a console is that it's always been just this one type of thing, so games work more reliably on it.
That's going away in a heart beat.
User avatar
VxJasonxV
Website Staff
Website Staff
 
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Castle Rock, CO

Postby Graywulf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:40 am

VxJasonxV wrote:
Graywulf wrote:
Reenee wrote:Making a gaming console like a PC gives extreme trouble for developers and it's just plain stupid overall. It's just milking more money out of the customers.
Can you explain better how its more difficult for game developers?
Developers have to build features around what may or may not be there.
The most notably being whether or not there will be a Hard Drive in the unit.
Being able to use it as a temp dump/swap/cache location would be keen. No such luck if consoles are that modular.

The one thing about a console is that it's always been just this one type of thing, so games work more reliably on it.
That's going away in a heart beat.


Yes developers have programmed in features that may or may not be there in the PS2 in the past not seeing the problem there. Example would be keyboard as well as a harddrive.

not sure what you meant when you stated that "No such luck if consoles are modular" I would suppose you think the OS will change with another harddrive may have to clarify that one cause that doesnt hold water.

oh and if you need software updates now it can be downloaded for new hardware.
User avatar
Graywulf
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Cerritos SoCA.

Postby Blackwolf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:55 am

Graywulf wrote:Yes developers have programmed in features that may or may not be there in the PS2 in the past not seeing the problem there. Example would be keyboard as well as a harddrive.

not sure what you meant when you stated that "No such luck if consoles are modular" I would suppose you think the OS will change with another harddrive may have to clarify that one cause that doesnt hold water.

oh and if you need software updates now it can be downloaded for new hardware.


How many games for the PS2 used the hard drive? One? Two? A lot more would have used it if it was available in every console, like it was in the Xbox.

Your keyboard analogy doesn't hold water, BTW. That's a lot different than a storage device. An optional device to type in a name or two doesn't compare to what we're talking about.

The PC is upgradable. You must have never been around in the MS-DOS days of game programming, where you had to account for all configurations that the game may be run on - there were hundreds of different video cards (with their own custom drivers) and hundreds of sound cards (with their own custom drivers). What worked on a Sound Blaster might not have worked on a Pro Audio Spectrum, so you had to code for both. What works on every other video card in the world won't work on a Cirrus Logic, which meant that they just didn't support my video card. (Still bitter on that one.)

Yes, Windows has made that easier, especially with the DirectX HAL, but you still have to account for multiple processor speeds, HD access speeds, memory access speeds, and amount of memory. That's a lot to account for, and that's why you have "Minimum Requirements" on the back of the box. The argument here, that I completely agree with as someone who has developed games in the past, is that we will now see the "Minimum Requirements" for PS3 games. So, if you have JUST a PS3, you will not be able to play the hottest new Gran Turismo, because it will require upgrading the memory inside it. Or, ALL games could be coded to work with the base PS3, and all that upgrading would do you no good, since the game was coded for the lowest common denominator. (Or, you could look at Oblivion on the 360 - without a hard drive the load times are excruciating.)

We already see this some with the Xbox 360. You can't play Final Fantasy XI without the hard drive. You can't play some games in Europe (Championship Manager, I think?) without the 360 HD. That leaves off an entire segment of your userbase.

That is something expected for PC's. That was the one big thing that consoles had over PC's - everyone had the same hardware. Microsoft started taking that advantage away, and Sony is just stealing that idea and running with it.

You may not agree with, or like, what I've said, but the fact of the matter is that what I've said is true. Either we'll have disgruntled gamers who can't pay for the upgrades for their PS3 to play the new games, or we'll have disgruntled gamers who paid for all the upgrades but see no boost in performance since the games were coded with the base model in mind.
User avatar
Blackwolf
Avid Listener
Avid Listener
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Georgia

Postby Graywulf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:21 am

Blackwolf wrote:
Graywulf wrote:Yes developers have programmed in features that may or may not be there in the PS2 in the past not seeing the problem there. Example would be keyboard as well as a harddrive.

not sure what you meant when you stated that "No such luck if consoles are modular" I would suppose you think the OS will change with another harddrive may have to clarify that one cause that doesnt hold water.

oh and if you need software updates now it can be downloaded for new hardware.


How many games for the PS2 used the hard drive? One? Two? A lot more would have used it if it was available in every console, like it was in the Xbox.

Your keyboard analogy doesn't hold water, BTW. That's a lot different than a storage device. An optional device to type in a name or two doesn't compare to what we're talking about.

The PC is upgradable. You must have never been around in the MS-DOS days of game programming, where you had to account for all configurations that the game may be run on - there were hundreds of different video cards (with their own custom drivers) and hundreds of sound cards (with their own custom drivers). What worked on a Sound Blaster might not have worked on a Pro Audio Spectrum, so you had to code for both. What works on every other video card in the world won't work on a Cirrus Logic, which meant that they just didn't support my video card. (Still bitter on that one.)

Yes, Windows has made that easier, especially with the DirectX HAL, but you still have to account for multiple processor speeds, HD access speeds, memory access speeds, and amount of memory. That's a lot to account for, and that's why you have "Minimum Requirements" on the back of the box. The argument here, that I completely agree with as someone who has developed games in the past, is that we will now see the "Minimum Requirements" for PS3 games. So, if you have JUST a PS3, you will not be able to play the hottest new Gran Turismo, because it will require upgrading the memory inside it. Or, ALL games could be coded to work with the base PS3, and all that upgrading would do you no good, since the game was coded for the lowest common denominator. (Or, you could look at Oblivion on the 360 - without a hard drive the load times are excruciating.)

We already see this some with the Xbox 360. You can't play Final Fantasy XI without the hard drive. You can't play some games in Europe (Championship Manager, I think?) without the 360 HD. That leaves off an entire segment of your userbase.

That is something expected for PC's. That was the one big thing that consoles had over PC's - everyone had the same hardware. Microsoft started taking that advantage away, and Sony is just stealing that idea and running with it.

You may not agree with, or like, what I've said, but the fact of the matter is that what I've said is true. Either we'll have disgruntled gamers who can't pay for the upgrades for their PS3 to play the new games, or we'll have disgruntled gamers who paid for all the upgrades but see no boost in performance since the games were coded with the base model in mind.


Actually my statement about the keyboard and hard drive was in reference to hardware addons that may or may not be in the machine.

That in it self holds water cause its not a picked apart statement.

And as far as programmers working harder to make games I have to say so what if its half a$$ed games you want then I should just stop posting cause thats just stupid.

It really comes down to this how much for whats in it for me and what colors can I choose from. Not oh my gosh a PC i thought it was game machine gee I dont know how to use one of those.

Like really are we that upset that we can upgrade a game machine I think the only ones who should be upset are the PC developlers who couldnt do it before cause of a PC makers child phobia of a PC as a toy god forbid, or the fact that games have to be run in an OS hmm.

But since PCs are OS dependant isnt that the big reason for so many drivers?
User avatar
Graywulf
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Cerritos SoCA.

Postby Graywulf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:06 pm

For future reference I am not debating the use of a harddrive that is said to be stollen off the xbox which is so absolutely stupid as another sony stole this idea. The PS2 had the space available long before xbox if we are going to say something about stealling hardware ideas why the inclusion of the DVD in the XBOX didnt sony have that allready in the PS2.

Also why should anyone be excited about the new XBOX HDDVD like why have 1 Disk playe now you can have 2 of them wow maybe if i could just pop it into my 360 that would of been better but its just getting out of hand . XBOX 360 is earning the name of multiple BOXes hopfully not three hundreed and sixty of them so far its system power supply and now a second Disk player.
User avatar
Graywulf
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Cerritos SoCA.

Postby Blackwolf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:08 pm

Graywulf wrote:Actually my statement about the keyboard and hard drive was in reference to hardware addons that may or may not be in the machine.

That in it self holds water cause its not a picked apart statement.

And as far as programmers working harder to make games I have to say so what if its half a$$ed games you want then I should just stop posting cause thats just stupid.

It really comes down to this how much for whats in it for me and what colors can I choose from. Not oh my gosh a PC i thought it was game machine gee I dont know how to use one of those.

Like really are we that upset that we can upgrade a game machine I think the only ones who should be upset are the PC developlers who couldnt do it before cause of a PC makers child phobia of a PC as a toy god forbid, or the fact that games have to be run in an OS hmm.

But since PCs are OS dependant isnt that the big reason for so many drivers?


Okay, I guess you hate the fact that I actually respond to your points, because you always whine that I "pick apart" what you say.

So I guess I will attempt to respond more generically so as to not offend you.

The reason a bunch of drivers exist has nothing to do with the OS, but rather the amount of hardware available. When you have hardware, you need to have drivers that will work with that hardware. That is true for ALL electronics - PC's, Mac's, SNES's. For each card that you have in your PC, you have a driver for it. For each card that exists in my Linux box, there's a driver for that. A different driver than if that card was in my PC.

Similarly, for each COMPONENT in a PS2, Xbox, etc, there is a driver for THAT as well. The difference is that the video chip that powers the SNES, for instance, is the SAME for all SNES's. So the developers can do nifty tricks with the SNES video chip and can guaruntee it will work in all SNES's. The art of game programming is partially doing nifty things with the hardware to get things that shouldn't work SEEM like they work. Trickery? Sure is.

So, when a developer is developing for a console, they know exactly what hardware each player will be using. They know exactly what video chip you will be using. They know exactly the speed of the RAM in your machine and how much they have. They can optomize their code to work flawlessly to the hardware, since they're only working with one possible configuration.

At least, they could. Now that the PS3 wants to be upgradeable, there will now be multiple configurations and no longer will the game developer be able to know exactly what hardware you have in your PS3. This will lead to more half-assed efforts to get the game running before they ship it out the door. If they didn't want to do the game half-assed, then they would have to lengthen test time to adequately test for each seperate configuration. "Ok, x amount of time to spend testing the base PS3, now add x amount of time to test with the base PS3 but memory type 2, add x amount of time to test with the base PS3 but with hard drive type 2, add x amount of time to test with the base PS3 but with memory type 2 and hard drive type 2"...and so on. Unless they wanted to half-ass it and only spend x amount of time on all possible configurations.

Or, they could just ignore the lower configurations and only test for the highest end configuration of the PS3. That would make YOU happy, but not the person who wants to play the newest PS3 game but can't afford to upgrade his system from the base PS3 unit. And that fractures the market.

And that's exactly why PC gaming isn't as alive as it probably should be - I'd hate to see the game console market go down the same path.

I hope that answer didn't offend you as much as my previous ones did.
User avatar
Blackwolf
Avid Listener
Avid Listener
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Georgia

Postby Graywulf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:18 pm

Blackwolf wrote:
Graywulf wrote:Actually my statement about the keyboard and hard drive was in reference to hardware addons that may or may not be in the machine.

That in it self holds water cause its not a picked apart statement.

And as far as programmers working harder to make games I have to say so what if its half a$$ed games you want then I should just stop posting cause thats just stupid.

It really comes down to this how much for whats in it for me and what colors can I choose from. Not oh my gosh a PC i thought it was game machine gee I dont know how to use one of those.

Like really are we that upset that we can upgrade a game machine I think the only ones who should be upset are the PC developlers who couldnt do it before cause of a PC makers child phobia of a PC as a toy god forbid, or the fact that games have to be run in an OS hmm.

But since PCs are OS dependant isnt that the big reason for so many drivers?


Okay, I guess you hate the fact that I actually respond to your points, because you always whine that I "pick apart" what you say.

So I guess I will attempt to respond more generically so as to not offend you.

The reason a bunch of drivers exist has nothing to do with the OS, but rather the amount of hardware available. When you have hardware, you need to have drivers that will work with that hardware. That is true for ALL electronics - PC's, Mac's, SNES's. For each card that you have in your PC, you have a driver for it. For each card that exists in my Linux box, there's a driver for that. A different driver than if that card was in my PC.

Similarly, for each COMPONENT in a PS2, Xbox, etc, there is a driver for THAT as well. The difference is that the video chip that powers the SNES, for instance, is the SAME for all SNES's. So the developers can do nifty tricks with the SNES video chip and can guaruntee it will work in all SNES's. The art of game programming is partially doing nifty things with the hardware to get things that shouldn't work SEEM like they work. Trickery? Sure is.

So, when a developer is developing for a console, they know exactly what hardware each player will be using. They know exactly what video chip you will be using. They know exactly the speed of the RAM in your machine and how much they have. They can optomize their code to work flawlessly to the hardware, since they're only working with one possible configuration.

At least, they could. Now that the PS3 wants to be upgradeable, there will now be multiple configurations and no longer will the game developer be able to know exactly what hardware you have in your PS3. This will lead to more half-assed efforts to get the game running before they ship it out the door. If they didn't want to do the game half-assed, then they would have to lengthen test time to adequately test for each seperate configuration. "Ok, x amount of time to spend testing the base PS3, now add x amount of time to test with the base PS3 but memory type 2, add x amount of time to test with the base PS3 but with hard drive type 2, add x amount of time to test with the base PS3 but with memory type 2 and hard drive type 2"...and so on. Unless they wanted to half-ass it and only spend x amount of time on all possible configurations.

Or, they could just ignore the lower configurations and only test for the highest end configuration of the PS3. That would make YOU happy, but not the person who wants to play the newest PS3 game but can't afford to upgrade his system from the base PS3 unit. And that fractures the market.

And that's exactly why PC gaming isn't as alive as it probably should be - I'd hate to see the game console market go down the same path.

I hope that answer didn't offend you as much as my previous ones did.


Honestly let me start by saying your not offending me in the least I dont know you at all to be that upset.

And to further communicate the driver issue that if your saying that a new graphics card becomes available and a driver is made for it im sure I would rather buy that card and install the driver than buy a whole new machine with the card and driver installed for me.

thats been my point from the start but I think that its you who is offended by my post when im getting some points answered.
User avatar
Graywulf
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Cerritos SoCA.

Postby Blackwolf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:39 pm

I think the disconnect here is that I'm speaking as a programmer, you're speaking as a user. You're not looking at it from a game development standpoint, because you think it's just a card and a driver...Unfortunately it's not that simple in terms of using that driver.

Just look at the PC games that have bugs with nVidia cards but not with ATI cards - it's because they probably tested more with the ATI cards for whatever reason and didn't spend as long testing for the nVidia cards. Then there are the patches. My side is - I don't want to see game CONSOLES go down the same path as the PC, and that's exactly where we're headed.

You'll regret wanting multiple PS3 configurations in a few years. Trust me.
User avatar
Blackwolf
Avid Listener
Avid Listener
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Georgia

Postby krispykreme » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:14 pm

What was the website of the week for this show?
Image
Image
User avatar
krispykreme
OLR Whore
OLR Whore
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:00 pm

Postby Graywulf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:30 pm

Blackwolf wrote:I think the disconnect here is that I'm speaking as a programmer, you're speaking as a user. You're not looking at it from a game development standpoint, because you think it's just a card and a driver...Unfortunately it's not that simple in terms of using that driver.

Just look at the PC games that have bugs with nVidia cards but not with ATI cards - it's because they probably tested more with the ATI cards for whatever reason and didn't spend as long testing for the nVidia cards. Then there are the patches. My side is - I don't want to see game CONSOLES go down the same path as the PC, and that's exactly where we're headed.

You'll regret wanting multiple PS3 configurations in a few years. Trust me.


No problem ive been a programmer and a PC tech myself for about 20 years now ive read some of what to expect from the new dev program kits and how they are worked upon with the gaming systems.

not sure programming comes into play when it comes to character and background design since the new dev software simplifies complex coding for game developers.

the tools are there and drivers are not really an issue when it comes to gaming anyhow at least not to my knowledge for the software that is being used have been designed on the same video card structure.

there are new instructions to be added of course for all the bumpmaps and colormaps bitmaps so on and so on that the new cards have to offer but all this as a gamer or user would not have to think about.

and I am not wishing to have constant replacement of hardware for if what is said to be the structure of the cell and the boast from nvidia are really true dont think an upgrade will be necesary for about 5 to 10 years only thing i would want to add is a terribyte HDD

But hey I do think you are a bit biased toward ATI never used one myself have had an NVIDIA card in all 5 of my PCs but thats ok if you like ATI personally I feel its a close race but NVIDIA has a lead this year.

I do hear what your saying about the whole driver and update nightmare that is windows but im willing to give the PS3 a chance cause its something different and perhaps immune to bill gates.

perhaps thats the key to relieving your stress just bury microsoft in the crap its made from and move on.
User avatar
Graywulf
Supporter
Supporter
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Cerritos SoCA.

Postby Blackwolf » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:36 pm

Actually, I haven't had an ATI card since the original All-In-Wonder in college...I speak from experience with my own nVidia cards of things not working because they're "made for ATI" (and I'm sure it's the same way for ATI owners who try to play some "made for nVidia" games)

I'm still surprised your hung up on drivers when I'm not talking about them, but rather talking about the game supporting the different configurations, but I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one.
User avatar
Blackwolf
Avid Listener
Avid Listener
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Georgia

PreviousNext

Return to Sunday: Orange Lounge Radio LIVE -- (Podcast talk too)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron